As we wrap up our season on Project 2025, A'shanti takes a global look at these policies. With Dr. Frances Colón, the Senior Director for International Climate Policy at the Center for American Progress, and Dr. Dorian Crosby, an Associate Professor of Political Science at Spelman College, A'shanti unpacks how Project 2025's proposals extend far beyond our borders, with implications for climate change, immigration, and a range of other issues.
As we wrap up our season on Project 2025, A'shanti takes a global look at these policies. With Dr. Frances Colón, the Senior Director for International Climate Policy at the Center for American Progress, and Dr. Dorian Crosby, an Associate Professor of Political Science at Spelman College, A'shanti unpacks how Project 2025's proposals extend far beyond our borders, with implications for climate change, immigration, and a range of other issues.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
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A'SHANTI GHOLAR:
Welcome back, brown girls A'shanti here. I'm your host for the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. As we wrap up our special season on Project 2025, I want to take a look at the policies shaping not just our country, but our world. Even as some might argue, our diplomatic authority is fading, it is undeniable that the U.S. sets the tone for the world. Under the first Trump administration, we saw a distinct isolationist policy Project 2025 is proposing to take that even further. The writers of Project 2025 weren't just looking inward when they wrote this. They were also looking outward. Today I want to talk about two policy areas where that's top of mind. First, immigration President Trump's recent racist rhetoric around Haitian immigrants aside. Project 2025 is proposing less cooperation and more demonization and climate change, which knows no borders. We need to act as a unified world. If we have any hope of surviving the climate crisis and Project 2025 could set the whole world back. Our guest today will tell us about what Project 2025 means for immigration, climate change and our world order as a whole. Frances Colón is the scientist who leads international climate policy at the Center for American Progress. She served as the America's Lead for Climate under President Barack Obama. And then in 2016 she worked the transition team to President Trump's administration. And Dr. Dorian Crosby is a political scientist. She's the director of the Refugee and Forced Migration Studies Program at Spelman College. She's passionate about bringing more black women into the space. Her work focuses on African refugees and she works with the local resettlement organizations in Georgia.
A'SHANTI:
Dr. Crosby, Dr. Colón, I am thrilled to have you with us today. Before we get into our questions, 'cause we have a lot to talk about, could you each just introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about you? Let's go ahead and start with you Frances.
DR. FRANCES COLÓN:
Sure, thanks ‘Shanti. My name is Dr. Frances Colón. I am a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, where I lead a program on international climate policy to make sure the U.S. is well positioned in the international sphere to carry out its climate ambition. I'm a scientist by training biologists by background, and I've had a long career at the intersection of science, climate change, environment and policy, working for the government, for civil society organizations and nonprofits.
A'SHANTI:
Really cool stuff. And Dr. Crosby, let's hear from you.
DR. DORIAN CROSBY:
Yes, thank you A'shanti. It's great to be here with everyone and Dr. Colón, I'm an associate professor of Political Science at Spelman College. I also founded the recent minor of refugee and forced migration studies at Spelman, which makes it the only HBCU with a degree in refugee and forced migration studies. And it's great to be here.
A'SHANTI:
Awesome. Two amazing accomplished women, the perfect people to have on as we dive into the foreign affairs part of Project 2025. So I want to just start a little bit by setting the scene on where the U.S. stands in relation to the rest of the world. And Dr. Crosby, I wanna start with you, when we're recording this, we're coming off of Vice President Harris doing a town hall with Univision. I watched it last night. I thought it was very, very solid. But we know that immigration is very much a topic in this election cycle. So can you just tell us in recent years, what has been the U.S.' attitude towards immigration and migration?
DORIAN:
Yes, and first let me start off by saying these are my opinions and they in no way represent my employer. So yes, the U.S. has had an ongoing volatile issue with immigration. Immigration has always been a very hot political topic in the United States. And recently because of anti-immigration rhetoric and policies, we have seen an increase in the negative narratives as well as social behaviors and policies and sometimes expressed in violence against immigrants. For example, we know that there has been some very harsh and false rhetoric rendered against the Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio, which has caused tremendous damage to their lives and has affected not only citizens in Ohio, but patients in the diaspora and others who care about humans and how they are treated. And so we're seeing immigration again weaponized and utilized as a way to revert our progression in terms of inclusion in policies in society. So where we are now with immigration is nothing new to the United States. It's just now in a repackaged and more intense and acceptable vehicle in terms of those who are in elected positions who are espousing most of the negative narratives and rhetoric that is increasingly making it very dangerous for immigrants from any place in the world to be in the United States.
A'SHANTI:
Thank you. And Dr. Colón, I wanna go to you to talk a little bit more in terms of climate policy, not only in the U.S. but the rest of the world. We are dealing with several horrible hurricanes that have wreaked havoc across the country. Again, we have lots of misinformation and disinformation and lots of people just don't even believe that climate change is real. So can you just tell us a little bit about how things have evolved since you've left the White House and worked on these issues?
FRANCES:
The United States tends to be a leader in the world on climate ambition, climate action. When the United States left the international climate sphere in basically in 2017 withdrew from the Paris Agreement. It created a lot of space for countries to really step back from a lot of the commitments they had made to decrease emissions, to make progress on climate action. And so it was a very welcome event when the United States came back under the Biden administration and rejoined the Paris Agreement put forward a very ambitious goal for emissions reductions and for climate action. Our leadership really emboldens other countries to take very ambitious steps themselves. We sort of set the pace and, and the rest of the world really follows. And so under the Biden administration, a lot of progress was made, especially domestically here in the United States through the Inflation Reduction Act on a lot of climate action to really lower our emissions, which is the one of the goals that we have set forward.
FRANCES:
But really to power a clean energy transition in the United States that will create jobs that will clean up our air, that will lower bills for American families in terms of their energy bills and more. And so it has made a huge difference for the United States to be back, to put forward and, and start implementing the boldest climate law, the the world has ever seen and to really take those steps. And so now we're entering a period where there's a lot of uncertainty that the world is starting to feel in terms of what will be United States position at the climate change negotiations table in terms of, of pushing the world to be more ambitious in light of, of this election and the uncertainty of the results of the election. Right? There's one option that is very climate forward, and there's another option which basically as outlined in Project 2025, is about unwinding all climate action government-wide and really treats climate action as an extremist agenda that is a war on fossil fuels when what we are really trying to do is put more money back in the pockets of Americans, clean up our air and really stem those worst impacts of climate.
A'SHANTI:
Thank you so much for that Dr. Colón. And we know what's been going on in the U.S. right now. We've seen more pieces of Project 2025 and how it relates to climate policy being pulled out, including that they wanna eliminate some of the services that would even allow us to know that these hurricanes are coming, these hurricanes are building. That's problematic on a huge front.
FRANCES:
Yes. Coming out of the last two weeks where we've had hurricanes ravaging communities across Florida, Georgia, North Carolina communities that in many cases were not expecting to be the hardest hit, a community like Asheville, North Carolina, where many people thought they were pretty safe. And the ability for us to be able to track hurricanes, track their intensity, given a warning for people to get out of the way, to evacuate safely, to protect their homes, to protect their families, um, all of that information is, is what our scientists give us to best prepare us for our safety. And the fact that we would privatize these and that this information instead of the science being available to all Americans, the hard work of our scientists just freely available. We, under Project 2025, we would make this information only available to those who can pay for it.
A'SHANTI:
Oh my goodness. So I want to read this next part directly from Project 2025. So it states that they will reorient the U.S. government's posture toward friends and adversaries alike. When I read that, for me, that sounds like stuff I read during like world history when this is not who we want it to be, we want to be better than this. And it comes off as very isolationist. So I wanna dive in a little bit more, you know, and I wanna start with you Dr. Crosby. Were there any other policy proposals in there that just made you go, wow, are they serious?
DORIAN:
Well, yes. I think the one that we are most familiar with is the mass deportation that is problematic on so many levels because it reeks of a repeat of genocide that we have experienced already globally under Hitler in Nazi Germany. So the rhetoric is there, the policies are there, the practicality is not there. That may be intentional or unintentional, but nevertheless, when you talk about just quote rounding up people, that means you're, you don't take time to discern who has documentation, who does not have documentation. You are also enfolding refugees who are here legally into the broader anti-immigrant positions of deportation. And the other part is how do you practically implement that? And it's just, just the thought of it means that you are now, which is also in Project 2025, you are now unleashing ICE or Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency to crack down on immigrants.
DORIAN:
They've already been unleashed in certain communities, especially here in Clarkston, Georgia and other areas where I'm, you know, familiar with where I am, you're unleashing them to crack down on communities that really have no defense against an onslaught of intrusion into their lives. So we also come into conflict when I think about it in terms of the politics of humanitarianism. We are humans. We are in the United States, and so it is our obligation to be a country with such a wealth of resources to help those who are in need. So yes, the humanitarian need and effort is there, but when you start to put politics on top of that, then you begin to make a calculated decision as to who receives those resources, who should receive those resources. And that is problematic because that sets you up for being able to operate within that dichotomy of us and them and always providing a way out or a scapegoat by the “others.” Which again, is not new in human history, it's not new in the United States, but it is a way to make sure that the extreme policies that used to be acceptable and a foundation of the United States are returned.
A'SHANTI:
In just listening to you talk, it reminded me of one of the moments during the vice presidential debate where I personally just felt gaslit for 90 minutes by JD Vance for everything he did say and did not answer. And he was specifically asked by the moderators how they would enact these mass deportations. And there was no answer. That tells us a lot that this is another concepts of a plan. And I wanna go over to you, Dr. Colón, because we heard Dr. Crosby talk about how people have been displaced, a lot of the, that due to environmental issues. So can you tell us a little bit more about how this isolationist policy that they talk about in Project 2025 would actually impact climate and environmental policy and how those two are connected?
FRANCES:
Right. So one of the things that we know about climate impacts is that vulnerable communities are hit first and are hit the hardest. And within those communities, women and girls are sometimes the hardest hit because of lack of, of social protections, because of lack of resources. And so when we're talking about the hardest impacts of climate around the world, we're talking about something that exacerbates stressors that are already in place, whether those are political instability stressors or economic stressors. All of those things exacerbated by climate will result in conflict displacement of people, which Dr. Crosby spoke so well about. All of these are the ways in which we think it's not just that there's an extreme heat wave, that there's unprecedented storms. It is that our vulnerable communities in the U.S. and around the world are living in conditions that are exacerbated by these climate impacts. And that yields long-term conditions such as health conditions, displacement, food insecurity, the loss of livelihoods, and all of these things are things that make people move internally within countries move across borders. They are conditions that will put additional pressure on the immigration issues that we've already seen and that we know have been such an important part of the discussion here in the U.S. and around the world.
A'SHANTI:
There's so much that they wanna work against. And you just really hit for us the importance of that cooperation, how climate change is an issue across the globe, not just here in the us. And you mentioned earlier about the Paris Agreement and Project 2025 does contain many proposals that involve us possibly leaving again. What do you think that impact would be just given everything that we're seeing going on right now, and it's a time when we all really need to be coming together as a global community to discuss climate change and what are we gonna do to ensure that we can still all live on this planet?
FRANCES:
That's a fantastic question. Um, because sometimes these multilateral agreements that all the countries get on board seem very abstract to folks. We have a climate crisis that is so large in scope that the only way we're gonna wrap our arms around it and really tackle it is if we do it together with the rest of the world. This is not a problem or a challenge that we can go alone. The planet isn't warming just in the United States or just in pockets and spots. The impacts of it are felt globally. And the United States is the second largest emitter of greenhouse gasses and the largest producer of fossil fuels. And so when we collaborate with other countries, our actions impact others, others' actions impact us. For example, China is the largest emitter. Their actions, whatever they do to lower emissions, has an impact on how we tackle climate.
FRANCES:
That is why we signed that agreement together with other countries to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees at a max. And what we were all going to do together. And every country has put forward plans, they're called the global climate targets, and every country has put forward a target for how much they're gonna reduce emissions by 2030 next year, they're gonna say how much they're gonna reduce by 2035 so that we can collectively tackle this problem that is a global problem. The issue with withdrawing from the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, which is something that Project 2025 lays out, is that once the United States steps out of, of these multilateral platforms and and agreements, it creates space for bad actors to step in and take over the process and the multilateral cooperation space, sometimes actors that have a stake in more fossil fuel production and don't really want to see the world collaborate to move away from fossil fuels and and triple renewable energy capacity.
FRANCES:
If the U.S. steps out of the climate space, again, under a not so climate forward administration, under what Project 2025 says, we are once again entering a more adversarial and impractical relationship with China, which is to our detriment on climate goals. Because if the two highest emitters of greenhouse gases in the world cannot come together to tackle this than we are in serious trouble. And so that is why it's, it's a mistake to step out of these cooperative spaces worldwide in terms of the progress we've made and what we will be lacking.
A'SHANTI:
Mm-Hmm. So much of what you said is really profound, but one of the things that really hit me is how you said, well, if we're not doing all of this work together, the number of people who would just feel, oh, I can just take this little step back, this little roll back. And before you know it, it becomes a really big global issue, like a bigger global issue that we all have to deal with.
We will be right back after a word from our sponsor.
Way to Win is a national hub for donors. Their goal is to build and strengthen multiracial democracy through strategic investments. And it's probably led by women of color like Tory Gavito, co-founder and president with the election, imminent Tory and Way to Win are supporting grassroots work to protect communities against a threat of Project 2025 and beyond. I wanted to hear more. So here's an excerpt from my conversation with Tory.
TORY GAVITO:
I'm raising two teen girls and they just night and day from the decision that that President Biden made to Kamala's launch. I mean, the amount of pride that they have in sharing the memes, I I get more memes from, from these teen girls and then the conversations that they're having with their peers. So one of my daughters is 18, she gets to vote for the first time in this cycle. Ooh, I know a new Texas voter. It's kind of exciting. Love it. And she goes to an all girls school that's a public school that's dedicated for primarily girls of color, actually
A'SHANTI:
Love it. I love hearing about your daughter and her fellow brown girls that are excited about Kamala gonna be able to vote for the first time. We're still having also the public discourse as we get closer and closer. What should our listeners keep in mind in the final weeks of the election and do you have a call to action for them?
TORY:
So our listeners need to keep in mind that we have got to keep doing the work. So it is very easy when we hear headlines like Kamala Harris has raised $1 billion in 80 days. Right?
A'SHANTI:
Amazing.
TORY:
She's raised so much money, it's easy to be like, well she's got it. No, she doesn't. Got it. We've all gotta help.
A'SHANTI:
This is razor thin, y'all. Yes, we've all gotta help. This is razor thin.
TORY:
Whatever we did in 2018 that led to all those historic firsts in that first midterm post-Trump, we, you know, we were marching, we were writing letters, we were making phone calls, we were volunteering, we write checks, we gotta keep it up. I know it feels difficult because we have been fighting this fight for many cycles and yet it just may be our American duty, right? And this next step is electing Vice President Harris as our first woman of color president. So I, I wanna encourage everyone to stay in and then for listeners who have more to give, right Way to Win is a hub for donors who can give at various levels, but wanna give at scale and wanna really pull their resources together to make an impact. And so we invite you to learn a little bit more about us too.
A'SHANTI:
Absolutely love it everyone, make sure you follow Way to Win, you follow Tory, they are doing that long-term investment work and we all know that is key. Tory, thank you so much for being with us today and thank you so much to Way to Win for making this special season on Project 2025 of the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. Possible.
TORY:
Thank you A'shanti. And thank you to all the brown girls listening. Let's do this
A'SHANTI:
And we are back.
So Dr. Crosby, I do wanna go back to you. I was watching a video the other day that popped up in my social media feed and it was a debate between Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush, Papa Bush, and they were talking about Mexico and you would not recognize that as the Republican party of today because it was very much, how do we have cooperation? These people need jobs, we have jobs here. How can this be mutually beneficial? And that is so different to what we see in Project 2025 where they want to reinstate the remain in Mexico policy. Can you just tell us a little bit more like how do these kind of policies negatively impact how we work with other countries, but also the impact on immigration and force migration?
DORIAN:
Can I circle back to Dr. Colón's remarks about climate and climate refugees?
A'SHANTI:
Absolutely.
DORIAN:
I think what she said is so important because climate refugees are now folks who are displaced. That has been over the last 10 oh plus years added to the lexicon of refugee and forced migration studies. As we know the initial definition comes out of after World War II and those who were uprooted because of war and conflict. But since the 1951 convention relating to the status of refugees held in Geneva, Switzerland, we have seen people who have been uprooted beyond just war and conflict. And as we are experiencing more rapid changes in our climate, in the environment, we are seeing people who are increasingly uprooted because of changes in their weather, changes in their environment. So yes, we are, we are having to expand the conversation about refugees and climate refugees are at the top of that. But in terms of Mexico and as you mentioned, remain in Mexico, that policy, it forces folks to remain in Mexico while there asylum cases are pending.
DORIAN:
And that speaks to what needs to happen and what has been happening under the current administration to make some adjustments to the backlog that is there. The system is, it needs work. No one is disagreeing with that. But what we don't want to do is just completely eliminate the possibility of folks coming into the United States. So we need to fix the system, but we don't need to just completely demolish the system, which will certainly happen if we are under an administration that wants to completely eliminate, for instance, the refugee admissions program, which was already attempted in 2017 under that particular administration, we already know that that was an issue when the person was in office, they will build the wall. And so are we back to that now? So I mean, building the wall is just a way of saying we're, we're trying to make sure we find a way to exclude you, keep you out.
DORIAN:
So it's all very calculated and I think that's what I really want people to understand is that Project ‘25 is the playbook on paper. But it is a very real and serious attempt to sabotage our democracy. Flawed as it is imperfect, as it is. It is an outright attempt to demolish that democracy that is here. And so if that goes away and we no longer have the trust of our allies and we are no longer leading on the global scale in terms of our humanitarianism, we still are at the forefront of making sure that there's a humanitarian effort and that the Web of Democratic principles such as freedom, equality, justice, are still a part of our global fabric. If those principles are no longer upheld by our leaders, and if those principles are no longer upheld in the United States by our leaders, then the whole concept of a global system that supports humanity is in jeopardy.
A'SHANTI:
Whew. Wow. Thank you Dr. Crosby. I know our listeners can't see us, but Dr. Colón and I were sitting here we're just like, yes. Yes. This has been such a powerful conversation and both of you have just so really shown our listeners how migration and climate change are truly deeply interconnected and how we need to look at them in that way. But this is a BGG. We always end on good notes. So I would love for each of you to tell us something in your work that is actually giving you hope right now that our listeners can take with them as we prepare to head to the polls on election day. I'll start with you, Dr. Colón. I think that the way the U.S.
FRANCES:
Communities around these two very strong hurricanes came together to prepare, help protect each other, our first responders, taking care of their communities, neighbors, helping neighbors, the way that everybody has taken on the charge of fighting back misinformation about the hurricanes, about the aid, about the assistance that the government is bringing to every corner of these communities that need it the most. That is a way that we tackle climate with fact, with the strength of our love for each other, with not division, but really unity and coming together. And I think that's what we have to take into the future as we tackle these challenges, whether it's climate change or immigration or any of them, no matter what is happening in Washington or at the White House, the fact that communities can come together for each other no matter who you are, no matter where you came from and help each other through these difficult moments, that gives me hope.
A'SHANTI:
Yes, it has been great to just see people no matter what their political persuasion is, calling out the misinformation disinformation saying, stop it. You are impacting the recovery efforts, which means you're impacting our ability to help people.
A'SHANTI:
Dr. Crosby.
DORIAN:
The fact that people are taking it upon themselves now to more so find out about issues and are really thinking about is what I'm hearing AI generated or is it real? And also thinking about the fact that it is now at a point where it is more important to think about us as a holistic community that thrives under democracy. And if that democracy disappears, then where are we? So I think for me, it is the fact that it gives me hope to see that folks are really, really resistant to moving towards an anti democratic stance or they are really resisting the notion that anything else other than a democracy in work, in progress is what's best for them. That their lives really are better if they're focused again on those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and acknowledgement of our human connection, the right to a dignified life.
DORIAN:
And to fight for that, whatever that looks like. And to all of our young folks that may be listening, I think they are our hope as well. They're really being strong in times that I don't recall so much coming at me as a young person, especially if it's my first time voting. So I think that the hope also lies with with them that they are realizing they have a voice, they're utilizing that voice and they are realizing that this is the urgency of acting on what they're feeling, what they are experiencing in this particular moment in time, that they care and they realize their future is right now, that if they don't say something right now, their future is not as wonderful as they anticipated. So I have hope that we are all going to be and remain very informed citizens and are really going to put forth our best efforts and best practices to remain a participatory democracy.
A'SHANTI:
Yes. So all of that, Dr. Crosby, Dr. Colón, thank you all so much for sharing your knowledge with us. We have so many smart women always on the BGG podcast, but especially love when we get the women with a doctor in front of their name, because I know we going to get some nice deep education. They going to connect all the dots, and that is what both of you all did. Thank you so much for your time.
A'SHANTI:
That's a wrap on this special season all about Project 2025. I hope you learned a lot. I know I did. Throughout this season. We heard examples where Project 2025 has already been enacted and we got a sense for what kind of harm that would unleash at the national level, but it's not all bad. We also heard from our guests about the ways that we as citizens can resist right now, especially at the ballot box this November. As always, we're in this together. I'll see you in the voting booth and we'll be back for another season soon. Thanks as always, brown girls. Brought to you in partnership with Way to Win. Thank you so much. To all of our listeners, please take the time to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcast. It helps us out so much. For more information on the Brown Girls Guide to Politics, check us out@thebgguide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at the BG Guide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them@wondermedianetwork.com.
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Every American deserves the right to fair housing and Kamala Harris is working to make that right realized by us all. She learned firsthand how hard it is to work toward the dream of having a home. As California's Attorney General Kamala Harris took on the big banks in Wall Street, and now she's looking to give first time home buyers $25,000 for a down payment This November, vote for the leader looking out for your home. I'm Kamala Harris, candidate for president and I approve this message. Paid for by Harris for President.